I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the only people worthy of hell are those who advocate it (although in truth, even they don’t deserve it). I hate God, so as far as the hell-fire believers are concerned I will be going there. So even after a trillion, to the power trillion, to the power trillion, to the power trillion millenniums, I am still no closer to the end of my agonies than I was after the first second. And if you think that is punishment fitting the crime then I would say that there is something seriously wrong with you, and you should seek professional help.
Ultimate Axiom
JoinedPosts by Ultimate Axiom
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154
How many here (believers) believe in the Hell fire doctrine and why??
by jam init's obvious the bible is very clear on a actual hell of fire.
"cursed into the eternal fire with the devil and his angels", rev.20:15.
"lake of fire", rev.21:8 "fire and brimstone".
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Unsung Heroes of J.W net
by new hope and happiness inbeen on this site 8 months now, but not on a daily basis.
recently discoverd a poster named processor, loved his tread on the life of jesus.
anyway the guys posts never seem to make long threads.
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Ultimate Axiom
I don't know about unsung heros, but the thread that did the most for me (so far) was:
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The Apostasy Within
by Ultimate Axiom inin the latest watchtower (july 15, 2014, page 14, paragraph 10) it says; today, jehovahs people are not often confronted with apostasy within the congregation.
still, when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them.. so, not often, but occasionally jws are exposed to apostasy within the congregation, and they are instructed to decisively reject it.
as we all know, the vast majority of the apostasy they are exposed to comes from the governing body.. i am meeting up soon with an old friend from the 1970s who i havent seen for decades, who is still an active jw, and who would really like to hear what i think about things.
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Ultimate Axiom
cha ching, ‘quote mining’ cuts both ways, which is a good reason for doing it, for then the JW must confront the conflict. For example, consider the following three quotes that all JWs would have to endorse;
A: “… really, would you want to be even associated with a religion that had not been honest with you?” (Is This Life All There Is? 1974, page 46).
B: “When a Christian phrases things in such a way that he inwardly knows is leading brothers to a wrong conclusion, to believe something that is really not true, not accurate, how do you think God feels?” (Live With Jehovah’s Day in Mind, 2006, pages 114).
C: “… there have been those in times past who predicted an “end to the world,” even announcing a specific date. Yet, nothing happened. The “end” did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying.” (Awake! October 8, 1968, page 23).
All three of these can be supplemented with other quotes from the FDS that show that they stand guilty on all three counts, therefore in order to accept the above, they must reject the FDS - they face a similar pridicament to Vega in the first Star Trek film. Here’s a sample from many thousands of quotes that exist, that are already familiar to most on this forum, but I’ll give them for any that may not be familiar;
A: “At the evening meeting Russell determined that now, since they had evidenced their interest in Christ’s return and … his presence, it was necessary for him to go deeper into this matter and talk to them about the time that these things would take place. This he did, pointing to 1914.” (Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, 1959, pages 35 and 36). Not for one moment in his entire life did Russell point to 1914 as the year Christ’s return and his second presence would take place. It was a quarter of a century after Russell was dead before the Watchtower assigned that event to 1914.
B: “For over thirty years before [1914] … Jehovah’s Witnesses have pointed to the year 1914 as the time for the end of “the appointed times of the nations” and the time in which Christ would begin his Kingdom rule.” (Watchtower, February 15, 1966, page 103). While it is true that years before 1914 Jehovah’s Witnesses declared that the Gentile Times would end in 1914, to imply that this was also the case for the time in which Christ would begin his Kingdom rule is deliberately misleading, at that time they believed the latter event occured in 1878.
C: “in 1914 … the kingdom of God ... will have broken in pieces and consumed all earthly kingdoms.” (Zion’s Watch Tower, August, 1880, page 2). “The parallel, therefore, would establish definitely that the harvest would close forty years thereafter; to wit, in the spring of A. D. 1918.” (Watchtower, October 1, 1917, page 292). “The Scriptures clearly indicate that the climax is the fall of Satan’s empire and the full establishment of the Messianic kingdom. This climax being reached by 1925” (Golden Age, January 4, 1922, page 217). “Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these last days will undergo fulfilment” (Watchtower, May 1, 1968, page 272)
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The Apostasy Within
by Ultimate Axiom inin the latest watchtower (july 15, 2014, page 14, paragraph 10) it says; today, jehovahs people are not often confronted with apostasy within the congregation.
still, when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them.. so, not often, but occasionally jws are exposed to apostasy within the congregation, and they are instructed to decisively reject it.
as we all know, the vast majority of the apostasy they are exposed to comes from the governing body.. i am meeting up soon with an old friend from the 1970s who i havent seen for decades, who is still an active jw, and who would really like to hear what i think about things.
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Ultimate Axiom
Make Lemonade – I take your point and accept that JWs have never claimed to be inspired, infallible prophets in the same sense as they regard the Biblical prophets, but they do claim to be “true messengers of Jehovah, who makes the messages He delivers through them come true” (Watchtower, May 1, 1977, page 8). And they have also said, “It is vital that we … respond to the directions of the ‘slave’ as we would to the voice of God” (Watchtower, June 15, 1957, page 371). Thus for all practical purposes, a JW must treat the FDS as if it were an inspired prophet – to argue otherwise is purely semantics, what’s the difference between a ‘true messenger’ and a ‘prophet’? And although (as you say) we can find quotes to support opposing positions on this, a JW can only take one position in practice.
wasblind – sorry, I see your point now. I agree with all you have said except one thing: Jehovah’s Witnesses did NOT suggest any dates and never have, it was the faithful and discrete slave that did. Whenever the Watchtower makes some pusillanimous admission that they got it wrong it always passes the blame onto JWs as a whole. JWs only accepted what the FDS said, the FDS did all the speculating, suggesting, prophesying etc, but they are too spineless to say ‘we got it wrong’, because that would damage their claim as being a ‘true messenger’, so they pass the blame onto JWs as a whole. There are dozens of examples of this, and we should not let them get away with it.
villagegirl – thanks for your post, but to me the real issue is, can we undermine the idea that the FDS is God’s true messenger. And if we start from the JWs position that it is, and that we must therefore follow what the FDS says (as if it were the word of God), then we reach a self-destroying spiral when we follow their words at the start of this thread ‘when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them” I don’t think we will ever convince a JW that their interpretation of a scripture is wrong, so no point batting scriptures back and forth, finding something that has no basis in scripture at all suits my purpose better, they have no verses to quote is such a situation.
ablebodiedman – I like that one.
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The Apostasy Within
by Ultimate Axiom inin the latest watchtower (july 15, 2014, page 14, paragraph 10) it says; today, jehovahs people are not often confronted with apostasy within the congregation.
still, when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them.. so, not often, but occasionally jws are exposed to apostasy within the congregation, and they are instructed to decisively reject it.
as we all know, the vast majority of the apostasy they are exposed to comes from the governing body.. i am meeting up soon with an old friend from the 1970s who i havent seen for decades, who is still an active jw, and who would really like to hear what i think about things.
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Ultimate Axiom
Vanderhoven7 - I like the application of Matt 15:9 to the examples you have given, that is definitely worth more analysis.
BluesBrother - you know I think he is, which is why I will meet with him. If truth be told I believe I am far more interested in hearing his views on what I have been collecting for him, than he is on hearing mine.
wasblind - "since Jehovah's Witnesses are not prophets , according to their own words" I disagree with you and Make Lemonade here. It might be a 42 year old quote, but in the Watchtower, April 1, 1972, page 197, they said, “does Jehovah have a prophet to ... declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. … This ‘prophet’ was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses.” I am not aware that they have rescinded this position, but I'm happy to be proved wrong if someone can supply more up to date 'light'.
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The Apostasy Within
by Ultimate Axiom inin the latest watchtower (july 15, 2014, page 14, paragraph 10) it says; today, jehovahs people are not often confronted with apostasy within the congregation.
still, when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them.. so, not often, but occasionally jws are exposed to apostasy within the congregation, and they are instructed to decisively reject it.
as we all know, the vast majority of the apostasy they are exposed to comes from the governing body.. i am meeting up soon with an old friend from the 1970s who i havent seen for decades, who is still an active jw, and who would really like to hear what i think about things.
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Ultimate Axiom
Exactly Darth - that is precisely my point – to obey the FDS here, my friend will have to 'decisively reject ' them, which will give him a dilema.
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The Apostasy Within
by Ultimate Axiom inin the latest watchtower (july 15, 2014, page 14, paragraph 10) it says; today, jehovahs people are not often confronted with apostasy within the congregation.
still, when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them.. so, not often, but occasionally jws are exposed to apostasy within the congregation, and they are instructed to decisively reject it.
as we all know, the vast majority of the apostasy they are exposed to comes from the governing body.. i am meeting up soon with an old friend from the 1970s who i havent seen for decades, who is still an active jw, and who would really like to hear what i think about things.
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Ultimate Axiom
Yes Kate - I like that reinstatement one. The trouble with doctrines like the mediator issue is that it's all too easy to get into the situation where you are batting scriptures back and forth, which JWs are very good at, and in this instance I want to avoid that. Blood is a good one, because although it can lead to a scriptural ping-pong game, their practical application of it is illogical. The fractions issue asside, I could never understand why you couldn’t use fertilizers that contained blood, after all, into the ground is where blood was supposed to go.
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Deuteronomy 22:28,29. Thank Jebus nobody pays attention to this f*cked up part of "God's inspired word" any more.
by DuvanMuvan in28 if a man happens to meet a virgin girl who is not engaged and he seizes her and lies down with her and they are discovered,+29 the man who lay down with her must give the girls father 50 silver shekels, and she will become his wife.+ because he humiliated her, he will not be allowed to divorce her as long as he lives.
" -nwt 2013 revised edition.
was just on the thread about lot and his messed up family life and was reminded of another part of the bible that made me feel physically sick the first time i read it.
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Ultimate Axiom
I find the whole idea of 'selling' a daughter quite disgusting, not to mention the stoning to death of a girl who can’t prove she’s a virgin. And I can’t believe I once actually believed this was a righteous law. For those that still believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God, how do you justify this? And do you criticize some sections of Islam for still living by it?
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The Apostasy Within
by Ultimate Axiom inin the latest watchtower (july 15, 2014, page 14, paragraph 10) it says; today, jehovahs people are not often confronted with apostasy within the congregation.
still, when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them.. so, not often, but occasionally jws are exposed to apostasy within the congregation, and they are instructed to decisively reject it.
as we all know, the vast majority of the apostasy they are exposed to comes from the governing body.. i am meeting up soon with an old friend from the 1970s who i havent seen for decades, who is still an active jw, and who would really like to hear what i think about things.
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Ultimate Axiom
In the latest Watchtower (July 15, 2014, page 14, paragraph 10) it says; “Today, Jehovah’s people are not often confronted with apostasy within the congregation. Still, when exposed to unscriptural teachings, regardless of the source, we must decisively reject them.”
So, ‘not often’, but occasionally JWs are exposed to apostasy within the congregation, and they are instructed to decisively reject it. As we all know, the vast majority of the apostasy they are exposed to comes from the Governing Body.
I am meeting up soon with an old friend from the 1970s who I haven’t seen for decades, who is still an active JW, and who would really like to “hear what I think about things”. He is a really nice guy and a reasonably free thinking Dub and always likes to go off on tangents exploring all sorts of strange ideas, which incidentally could bring him into trouble with paragraph 9 of that Watchtower about ‘controversial ideas’, but that’s another matter.
I am collecting as many examples of ‘unscriptural’ teachings from the GB that I can find so I can ask him if he has decisively rejected them.
The most obvious to me being the two groups of overlapping anointed Christians to explain Mathew 24:34. Other examples would be the unquestioning obedience they must give to the GB and the baptising of children.
What do you guys think? What are your favourite examples of unscriptural teachings that have come from the GB?
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Trinitiarian "proof-text" John 20:28 has some problems for "Trinitarians"
by booker-t inall through my years as a jws and after i have always wondered about john 20:28 where thomas says "my lord and my god" to jesus.
i just could not find a suitable answer for this text to disprove the trinity doctrine.
i really never swallowed the jws intrepretation of "shock" by thomas something like "oh my god" but at the same time i had a gut feeling trinitarians were hiding something about this verse.
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Ultimate Axiom
There are plenty of texts you could quote to support the idea that Christ was God, and plenty of others to support the idea that he wasn’t. But even if you come down on the side of Christ’s divinity, I still don’t see where you get the Trinity from. Surely a concept so totally alien to the Jewish God would have been explained by Paul somewhere in his letters if that's what he believed. But he doesn’t even mention it in passing, not so much as a whisper. Believe Jesus is God if you like, and tell me the bible supports that idea and I won’t argue with you, but don’t try and tell me that it therefore follows that God is a Trinity.